PEX Part III - PEX lawsuits, and should inspectors put a PEX disclaimer in their reports?

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All right, guys, thanks for joining us again here on the ride along today.

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We are talking with Mr.

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John Bolton in the third of a three part series, unintentional three part series about
pecs plumbing.

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And this is going to really kind of put a bow tie a little bow on the conversation.

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But we appreciate everybody that's chimed in on this.

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I mean, this is something that has been getting all kinds of interest Matt.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a hot topic and I think that, you everyone has a bunch of opinions and
to be honest with you, I think, I don't know how everyone else feels, but I have learned

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quite a bit um from people commenting on it and chiving in on it and other people's
opinions.

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So, I mean, I think that's what this is all about.

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We should keep going.

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Now I definitely agree, but John, thanks for jumping on.

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This whole thing kicked off when you and I talked, think, Inspection Fuel last year about
pex plumbing, man.

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And people have some very strong opinions on this.

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man, you are not kidding.

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It's like, you guys, here's where I come from.

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I learned something and I brought it to people.

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And I said, hey, brothers and sisters, inspectors all over the place, this is some stuff I
learned and you might want to look at it.

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And every time I do, man, the attacks are just brutal sometimes.

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you're all laughing because you've all heard them.

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And some of them are just rank.

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uh

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extremely unprofessional and I'm like this doesn't make any sense and I'm just trying to
tell you something.

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That is the internet though.

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mean, like, you know, I mean, there, can't put an opinion out there without somebody
giving some ridiculous uneducated opinion on it.

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Look, the fact of the matter is we can have a difference of opinion.

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And I think that that is good.

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I encourage differences opinions and for us to talk about this kind of things and see
other sides of it.

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But without like somebody just kind of coming out uneducated and just throwing a whole
bunch of nonsense at us.

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But that happens.

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I deal with that on a regular basis.

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Now it does.

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But before we get into sharing opinions here one more time again, we want to hear y'alls.

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We want to hear y'alls keep it respectful y'all seriously.

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I mean, ah there's we're all here to help each other.

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And honestly, the position of this show is to be as helpful as possible to home inspectors
in this industry that want to be successful.

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Okay, there's all kinds of drama online.

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We've actually taken some flack for not getting involved in it.

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We won't.

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I'm just going to tell you all right now.

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We don't right?

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We're here to be as helpful as possible.

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to as many people as possible.

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ah but we're gonna kick it off real quick with the drink of the day because John, I got
you hooked on something man.

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And you're welcome.

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That's all I'm gonna say what are you sipping on?

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You did and you know, I've got to send you that video.

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I don't know if Matt knows the story, but when we're doing the you don't know the story.

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OK, so we're doing the fireside chat thing and I know you.

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I listen to the show right?

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So I called Brad and I said, hey dude, what's your you know what you drink?

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What's your favorite drink?

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Because he was going to come over here to my place and I wanted to be the hostess with the
most of right and he says.

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in old fashioned and I'm like, okay, I'll figure it out.

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I've never had one before ever in my life.

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So I literally go to ABC Liquor and I go, I have a friend coming over his favorite is old
fashioned, how do I make them?

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And he goes, well, do you know?

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And I go, no, I know nothing.

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He says, okay, you need this, you need this and you need this.

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I said, done.

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And it brought home the stuff.

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And that was the drink of the day on that episode, Brad showing John how to make

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this old fashioned and like all of a sudden he had me hooked.

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You know, I've been making them ever since and that's what I'm drinking today is a really
nice old fashioned but with a twist.

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This is one with maple syrup.

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is just chef's kiss.

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Awesome.

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I've got no problem with that.

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I like adding a little bit of sweetness, obviously, whenever I make a cocktail, usually,
and an old-fashioned definitely calls for that.

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I think maple syrup is a really good addition.

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So cheers to that.

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What you got, Matt?

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well, me?

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See, I'm on location right now.

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I am in Grapevine, Texas right now.

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I'm out of town.

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I'm not in my stomping grounds.

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So I've got minimal supplies with me, right?

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And so today, I have just Wild Turkey 101 in a cup.

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Neat.

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Cheers.

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go, but we're going to toast to what you are going to be doing there.

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That's true.

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So yeah, I'm in town because tomorrow I am speaking from four to six at Oak Highlands
Brewery at the BS and beer two year anniversary of the DFW DFW chapter.

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And I want to explain BS and beer and what that is, cause that can sound like something
it's not.

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And I don't think there's enough people to understand that like the BS in BS and beer
stands for building science.

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The reason why they have

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this BSNBR meetup and there's different chapters all throughout the US and even in Canada.

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They meet up to discuss building practices, building science, and uh just network together
a community of people that like to learn, very smart people that like to teach, and just

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like to share what they do and what we can do to build better.

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uh so yeah, building science, the building science community, they have chapters all
throughout the US, like I say, and in Canada.

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find one of your local chapters.

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I encourage inspectors to become a part of this because as inspectors we can learn a ton
about what's going on inside the walls that may be causing the problems that we're finding

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during our inspections.

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I love it, man.

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That's fantastic.

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Anchor grass to you.

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Let me know how the topic goes.

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We are we're going to wait to talk about it on the next episode.

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Yeah, definitely.

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is in the DFW area tomorrow, that is the 21st of July, four to six, I'll be speaking at
the Oak Highlands Brewery.

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You're all welcome.

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It's a, anybody can come.

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So come on out.

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Fantastic, man, dude, I'm looking forward to it.

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I'm just sitting here.

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be today, because this is going to come out tomorrow, which will be today.

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This is happening today, Monday.

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What are you drinking, Brad?

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man.

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So I am sitting here in Florida and if y'all see me dabbing here, uh like I'm full gospel
preacher, you know, I'm just getting going a little bit, you know, the Holy Spirit's just

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moving.

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You know, it's only because my AC's been out for three days and the part magically doesn't
come in until tomorrow.

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Isn't it amazing how contractors suddenly the part just shows up on Monday?

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I bet it was there today, you if I was being honest, but I don't know.

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You don't want to pay for that part.

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yeah, so.

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Sunday part.

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That Sunday part's a lot more expensive.

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That's it.

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But I need this a bit extra then because of that.

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You know, I talked about this in the last episode.

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It's a rum old fashioned, which I think, you know, John being as we are Floridians over
here, it's it fits for a culture.

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I love bourbon.

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You know, that's definitely a heart of the country spirit.

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But when I showed up in Florida and I was looking at the bourbon and whiskey selections
and Scotches, I'm like, is dwarfed by

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by the rum selection down here.

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We're in the Caribbean, man, and we're in the tropics.

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So rum old fashioned, it's on the sweet side.

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you don't like sweeter cocktails, it might not be for you, but I think it adds a really
different experience to it.

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Super, super approachable and very dangerous.

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Because they go down really sweet.

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old fashioned.

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I've had a tequila old fashioned before.

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So I can see where like that pivot in alcohol and it doesn't make a big difference what
spirit you choose.

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um Especially, mean, bourbons even, but I mean, like if you go from tequila to, you know,
a rum, I can see that being a really big difference and make a really interesting

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cocktail.

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I'm looking forward to trying it.

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Yeah, man, tequila old fashions just get me in trouble and then I express opinions that
people don't like and then it turns into fights, know, which were.

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Let's do that.

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Yeah, maybe that's what happens online when when you see these inspectors they get into
keyboard war fights with each other.

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They all drink it tequila old fashioned y'all need to stop it.

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Okay, we're here to elevate the dialogue, not not lower it to the lowest common
denominator.

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But anyway.

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opinions.

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Let's give some opinions.

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John, we have been talking about PEX plumbing.

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we had a guest on, Eric Ony last time, master plumber up in Minnesota.

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And I feel like regionally, that affects different people's preference in materials,
right?

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His was a preference of a hybrid kind of approach to using copper and PEX.

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He wasn't as opposed to it.

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Down here in Florida, water chemistry is so different.

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uh Water table and soil content are so different.

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again, you have a bit more of caution towards it.

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And you sent us some really, really insightful stuff ah that kind of supports the position
that you made previously when we talked about this on the show, in that uh this is not a

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foolproof material.

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Yeah, that's true.

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And you know, the funny part was, and I completely respect your master plumber guy.

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He does what a lot of us can't do and I totally respect.

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Okay, so I don't mean anything ill towards him whatsoever.

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And I do realize that there may be some regional differences.

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Matter of fact, I was talking with Ruben Saltzman one time and he's in the same Minnesota.

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area, right?

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And he consulted his plumber on this because we were having the same conversations and his
plumber was telling him he doesn't have some of these issues and some of that makes sense.

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Okay, there is a long list of issues with PECS and actually let me back up one second and
say, listen, I am not here to fight.

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I'm here to inform.

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Okay, I'm not I'm not supporting one manufacturer, you know, or one brand, one type of
plumbing, copper.

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CPVC, PVC, anything like that.

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None of it matters to me.

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All I want to do is say, hey guys, listen, there's something going on here and you need to
look.

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ah But to the regional thing, one of the issues with pecs is fungal growth.

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Yes, it's fungal growth inside the piping.

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And you can find plenty of this stuff online.

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That's how I found it.

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Okay.

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I didn't invent any of this stuff.

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I read about it and I saw and I listened to the plumbers and stuff that are going through
it.

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And I've seen the pictures.

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Matter of fact, we did a PEX discussion not too long ago and I had Jonathan Simon and
Gabe, last name's escaped me right now.

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They were from FlowGuard Gold manufacturer.

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Now they know their competitors better than all of us put together, right?

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So they could talk about, and they were there to talk about technical stuff, chemical
stuff, anything like that.

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ah He has memorized a lot of uh these issues in, it could memorize dates and all that,
which are irrelevant really to me, to us.

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The fact is they're there, but.

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In some of those areas like Minnesota, you don't have the fungal growth issue as much as
you do in Florida, where we are.

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And I have pictures, I can show you multiple pictures of the stuff, the nasty stuff
growing inside these pipes, okay?

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UV gets through plastic.

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It doesn't get through something like copper.

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Okay, now, and if your temperatures are not as conducive in Minnesota as they are in
Florida, well, then maybe you won't experience that.

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as much there.

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So, okay, all that makes sense.

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However, there's so many other things on the list.

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And I bet you most people sitting here listening going, what are you talking about?

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Fungal growth.

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Yes, fungal growth.

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Mold inside pipes.

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I have seen it.

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Again, I can show you the pictures, but I don't want you to believe me.

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I want you to go prove it to yourself and find it online.

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You will find it.

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It's readily available information.

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wonder, it is the same issue happen in PVC or is it more impermeable to light in both CPVC
and PVC?

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be specific to a pipe.

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It seems like it would be more water chemistry based than anything.

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They don't have the UV penetration and there's something else in chemically and that's
where Jonathan Simon can answer that exact question scientifically where they don't have

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that issue at all with CPVC, but it's a chemical thing.

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Yeah, we're just turning into a part four, but I'm here for it, Well, I've seen that like,
yeah, I've seen, John, I've seen that chemical permeability is another issue with PEX as

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well.

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ah

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huge chemical permeability.

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I but I mean, that's an issue with copper too.

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mean, maybe to a lesser degree sometimes, but I mean, like the whole Thunder Bay situation
is all about, you know, uh a chemical issue that happened with the water that failed

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copper fittings.

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So I mean, like, you know, yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

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but the chemical permeation is a huge issue.

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Way back in the day, California uh contracted a lab and stuff to do these studies, and
they were able to measure.

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So these are guys with lab coats and powerful microscopes and all this stuff.

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They can measure chemicals down to parts per billion.

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And they were measuring all of these chemicals that you can't even pronounce.

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It doesn't make any difference.

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I can name them, but some of them anyway, but it doesn't make any difference.

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They measure them to the parts per billion.

222
00:14:01,244 --> 00:14:10,804
And what was allowed by California code at the time and what they were measuring was like
10 times the amount allowed.

223
00:14:10,864 --> 00:14:12,904
Some of the chemicals come out of the pipe.

224
00:14:12,904 --> 00:14:15,084
Some of the chemicals come through the pipe.

225
00:14:15,184 --> 00:14:18,124
In Florida, we don't have to worry about freezing.

226
00:14:18,124 --> 00:14:20,200
So some of our pipes are outside.

227
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,363
So you'll have the pipe go underground, come up and then go into the house.

228
00:14:23,363 --> 00:14:32,350
That exposed part, then all of sudden you get the yard guy and he's spraying for bugs and
ants and weeds and whatever else.

229
00:14:32,350 --> 00:14:35,793
They prove those chemicals can leach through.

230
00:14:35,793 --> 00:14:40,076
This is an EIR study, environmental impact report.

231
00:14:40,157 --> 00:14:45,861
And very, very uh interesting thing about this environmental report, they have all these
stats, right?

232
00:14:45,861 --> 00:14:47,443
And where they measure all this stuff.

233
00:14:47,443 --> 00:14:49,520
And then one day, poof.

234
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:50,685
It's gone.

235
00:14:50,871 --> 00:14:51,620
And you're like.

236
00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:52,875
Like the Epstein files?

237
00:14:52,875 --> 00:14:53,427
No, I'm sorry.

238
00:14:53,427 --> 00:14:55,250
Maybe we had it up or down.

239
00:14:55,317 --> 00:14:57,695
All of sudden we're gone.

240
00:14:57,695 --> 00:14:59,881
And it's been replaced with another EIR.

241
00:14:59,881 --> 00:15:04,956
So if you're going online looking for this EIR report, the one you're going to find says
it's all rainbows and unicorns.

242
00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:05,981
There's nothing wrong.

243
00:15:05,981 --> 00:15:08,308
You're going, wait, wait, wait, wait a second.

244
00:15:08,369 --> 00:15:11,130
Somebody in lab coat just measured it and told me.

245
00:15:11,578 --> 00:15:20,657
Well, it's a big issue here because we, in so many of the properties around here,
sprinkler systems and irrigation systems use reclaimed water.

246
00:15:20,657 --> 00:15:23,682
That's not fully treated.

247
00:15:24,646 --> 00:15:28,816
Maybe that could contribute to the fungus among us on the interior.

248
00:15:28,816 --> 00:15:29,893
I don't know.

249
00:15:29,893 --> 00:15:32,673
if it's in the soil, I mean, it's getting through to the pipe.

250
00:15:32,673 --> 00:15:33,172
Yeah.

251
00:15:33,172 --> 00:15:34,873
I mean, that's a possibility.

252
00:15:34,948 --> 00:15:36,523
But the big one, John, that I...

253
00:15:36,745 --> 00:15:38,478
they're using PEX for irrigation.

254
00:15:38,478 --> 00:15:44,032
I think they're using uh PERT and straight up polyethylene.

255
00:15:44,032 --> 00:15:50,380
Yeah, but if your pipe is coming in, if your water is getting fed in, I mean, what's that
getting fed in with from the city?

256
00:15:50,380 --> 00:15:54,031
If that's coming city if it's coming copper from the city or yeah something else

257
00:15:54,031 --> 00:15:54,740
that copper.

258
00:15:54,740 --> 00:15:56,000
don't know, could be.

259
00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:04,380
But I've got a picture I can show you where you can actually visually see, okay, because I
know a lot of people are visual learners, as am I.

260
00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:16,840
You can see when they print the information on the pipe and it has all kinds of where it
was made and age and all that stuff, you can watch that ink go through the plastic to the

261
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:17,400
water.

262
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:18,140
You can see it.

263
00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:19,660
I'll show you the picture.

264
00:16:19,780 --> 00:16:23,120
So chemical permeation is absolutely huge.

265
00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:24,346
Sure.

266
00:16:24,346 --> 00:16:34,157
But the big thing too, John, that this is honestly number one that stood out to me when
you wrote in kind of in response to the last episode.

267
00:16:34,157 --> 00:16:45,077
I can't remember if it was said that there were no PECS lawsuits in last 10 years or not,
but you gave evidence of the fact that there are several that are still underway.

268
00:16:45,657 --> 00:16:51,428
But these go back as far as 2013, and then there's been one every year since 2021.

269
00:16:51,428 --> 00:16:54,690
Let me I want to I can't wait to address that.

270
00:16:54,690 --> 00:17:03,635
Let me say one thing real quick because I want somebody that attacked me big time ah on
this the chemical permeation things is you just get a water treatment system.

271
00:17:03,635 --> 00:17:07,457
So I go maybe there's instead of attacking him.

272
00:17:07,457 --> 00:17:09,058
I said maybe there's something to this.

273
00:17:09,058 --> 00:17:10,088
I don't know.

274
00:17:10,088 --> 00:17:12,600
I am not this chemical water expert.

275
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:21,454
I don't claim to be so I looked into it and what I found was there is no system that is
going to completely eliminate all the

276
00:17:21,665 --> 00:17:23,387
the stuff out of the water.

277
00:17:23,387 --> 00:17:29,154
And if you've got something that was really close, it would be more expensive than just
re-plumbing.

278
00:17:29,154 --> 00:17:31,497
So it doesn't make any sense, okay?

279
00:17:31,497 --> 00:17:32,740
I think does that.

280
00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:37,470
But I mean, like, you don't want reverse osmosis for your entire house.

281
00:17:37,552 --> 00:17:39,596
That's the reason why people don't do that.

282
00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:44,875
It will never, nothing does 100 % gets rid of 100 % of the chemicals in the water.

283
00:17:44,936 --> 00:17:46,287
That's from what I have read.

284
00:17:46,287 --> 00:17:47,598
Okay.

285
00:17:47,979 --> 00:17:48,531
And again,

286
00:17:48,531 --> 00:17:48,782
did.

287
00:17:48,782 --> 00:17:50,275
I mean, I don't have any facts on that.

288
00:17:50,275 --> 00:17:51,896
I just thought RO did that.

289
00:17:51,896 --> 00:18:04,396
So, but as far as the lawsuits, what I sent you specifically was the last 10 years because
the master plumber said, oh, well, it's that we haven't had really had any problems in the

290
00:18:04,396 --> 00:18:05,536
last 10 years.

291
00:18:05,536 --> 00:18:08,076
And I went like, that's not true.

292
00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:10,356
It's just patently untrue.

293
00:18:10,436 --> 00:18:13,676
These lawsuits have been happening for a very, very long time.

294
00:18:13,676 --> 00:18:16,396
So what I sent you was just the ones in the last 10 years.

295
00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:19,386
But did you guys know that every major

296
00:18:19,386 --> 00:18:24,064
Tex manufacturer has had a minimum of one class action lawsuit.

297
00:18:24,994 --> 00:18:25,994
That's fascinating.

298
00:18:25,994 --> 00:18:38,539
again, I want to be fair here because I'm, I can't say that there have been, but I'm sure
that previously, you know, used materials have as well from CPVC to galvanize to copper.

299
00:18:38,659 --> 00:18:43,421
So if you know of any, let's have a fair discussion, drop them in the chat, but John's not
wrong.

300
00:18:43,421 --> 00:18:45,641
And I can read these off to you here.

301
00:18:45,662 --> 00:18:47,042
So go ahead, Matt.

302
00:18:47,213 --> 00:18:49,154
I just want to emphasize that.

303
00:18:49,154 --> 00:19:03,544
I mean, not all of them, but I think where this really this conversation, at least where
this conversation and kind of where we took it with Eric was the comparison of polybutyly

304
00:19:03,544 --> 00:19:04,904
to pecs piping.

305
00:19:05,505 --> 00:19:07,877
And there's two things I want to mention here.

306
00:19:07,877 --> 00:19:15,913
And one is, I mean, at least most of the class action lawsuits in the last 10 years on
pecs, not all of them.

307
00:19:15,913 --> 00:19:25,980
but a good chunk of them have been in relation to fittings, mostly to brass, and then uh
which, I mean, is understandable.

308
00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:28,362
I mean, not acceptable, but understandable.

309
00:19:28,362 --> 00:19:38,949
I mean, comparison of PB to PEX, we're talking about a billion dollars versus like three
quarters of a million.

310
00:19:38,949 --> 00:19:40,400
I mean, that's a lot of money.

311
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,922
Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of lawsuits, but I just don't think that...

312
00:19:43,922 --> 00:19:48,114
that it really, don't think we can compare the two because it's just.

313
00:19:48,114 --> 00:19:50,980
PEX is a polyolefin based plastic.

314
00:19:50,980 --> 00:19:53,504
Guess what else is a polyolefin based plastic?

315
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:54,792
PB.

316
00:19:54,792 --> 00:19:55,633
Yeah, I get that.

317
00:19:55,633 --> 00:20:00,696
But I think it's, think we are talking about two different systems altogether.

318
00:20:00,696 --> 00:20:14,664
I mean, the amount of lawsuits and the amount of money paid out for PB is exponentially
larger than anything that has happened in the entire life of and they've been around about

319
00:20:14,664 --> 00:20:19,647
the same period of, mean, different periods, but the same amount of years, right?

320
00:20:19,647 --> 00:20:20,634
PB was like,

321
00:20:20,634 --> 00:20:21,574
quick.

322
00:20:21,574 --> 00:20:23,474
Let me read these off to you real quick, Matt.

323
00:20:23,474 --> 00:20:26,854
So these are the ones that Johnson in.

324
00:20:26,914 --> 00:20:30,394
So 2013, there was a case filed.

325
00:20:30,394 --> 00:20:33,234
was Cole versus NIBCOing.

326
00:20:33,966 --> 00:20:35,046
Yeah, 2013.

327
00:20:35,046 --> 00:20:36,586
yeah, we'll get to the rest.

328
00:20:37,186 --> 00:20:40,686
That was the core allegation was that PEX tubing brass fitting.

329
00:20:40,686 --> 00:20:45,686
So you got it there and stainless clamps oxidize and de-zincify and leak.

330
00:20:45,686 --> 00:20:51,446
And 2021 only four years ago, four years ago, this was brasswell versus bow plumbing
group.

331
00:20:51,566 --> 00:21:00,286
had white bow PEX tubing oxidizes and fails that paid out 8 million August 29, 2024.

332
00:21:00,286 --> 00:21:04,352
Then 2023 it was Currico versus

333
00:21:04,352 --> 00:21:10,212
a uponer oxidative degeneration of uponer pex pipe.

334
00:21:10,212 --> 00:21:16,472
Court denied the motion to dismiss and the discovery is still underway as of March of
2025.

335
00:21:16,812 --> 00:21:22,492
Then I missed this one here 2021 again, Matt Storr versus uponer.

336
00:21:22,492 --> 00:21:25,870
So uponer again brought up here.

337
00:21:25,870 --> 00:21:30,330
Pipe cracking was another issue with that one.

338
00:21:30,850 --> 00:21:36,870
Australia had one in 2024 that was hot water pecs lines were rupturing.

339
00:21:37,170 --> 00:21:41,810
And then 2025 here, this was McCoy versus upon her again.

340
00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:43,750
So you hear that name keep coming up.

341
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:47,821
Micro cracks and oxidation in red, white and blue aqua pecs piping.

342
00:21:47,821 --> 00:21:50,661
The biggest one that was paid out.

343
00:21:50,905 --> 00:21:56,914
And this one is still ongoing and this is coming back to once again, desyncifying
fittings.

344
00:21:56,914 --> 00:22:04,205
ah There's a fund of 125 million for it with final payments issued this month.

345
00:22:04,205 --> 00:22:06,797
those, John, those are the ones just that you sent in there.

346
00:22:06,797 --> 00:22:08,288
Those are just in the last 10 years.

347
00:22:08,288 --> 00:22:17,143
And then I sent you like four of them that are ongoing where they're still doing, there's
a whole law process and I don't understand it.

348
00:22:17,143 --> 00:22:20,935
It's all I can explain is it's in the process.

349
00:22:20,935 --> 00:22:34,462
But in 2011, was the lawsuit against Upanore was categorized by the construction, yeah,
categorized by the construction defect center as possibly the largest effective plumbing

350
00:22:34,462 --> 00:22:35,943
recall in US history.

351
00:22:36,929 --> 00:22:39,000
That's just that one, okay?

352
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,752
uh However, I don't care.

353
00:22:42,752 --> 00:22:44,182
It really doesn't matter.

354
00:22:44,182 --> 00:22:47,304
The point is there's issues with this pex.

355
00:22:47,304 --> 00:22:50,025
So why would you ignore all this stuff?

356
00:22:50,025 --> 00:22:56,067
To me, that's like ignoring the cracks in the foundation and then being surprised if the
house falls down.

357
00:22:56,188 --> 00:22:57,688
It doesn't make any sense.

358
00:22:57,688 --> 00:22:59,429
Let's look into this, right?

359
00:22:59,429 --> 00:23:04,501
Instead of ignoring, honest to God, I think if you ignore it, that's professional
negligence.

360
00:23:04,942 --> 00:23:09,414
Well, but mean, like, is there, we have issues with other pipes too.

361
00:23:09,414 --> 00:23:11,025
Like, what do you think the solution is?

362
00:23:11,025 --> 00:23:13,747
I think that's really where, like we have to pivot.

363
00:23:13,747 --> 00:23:20,310
if, if, if, PECS has all these problems, then what's the, what's the solution?

364
00:23:20,771 --> 00:23:21,871
I don't know.

365
00:23:22,231 --> 00:23:26,031
I am not sitting here to try to say this is the solution.

366
00:23:26,031 --> 00:23:27,371
That's not my job.

367
00:23:27,411 --> 00:23:31,571
My job is to go, hey, guys and gals, you need to look into this.

368
00:23:31,571 --> 00:23:32,291
OK?

369
00:23:33,391 --> 00:23:37,271
Yeah, so you can sit here and make arguments a little.

370
00:23:37,331 --> 00:23:39,031
Anyway, you can sit here and make the arguments.

371
00:23:39,031 --> 00:23:40,471
It doesn't make any difference.

372
00:23:40,471 --> 00:23:42,091
There are issues with pecs.

373
00:23:42,091 --> 00:23:48,731
And I think everybody needs to have some type of disclosure statement, whatever you are
comfortable with.

374
00:23:48,981 --> 00:23:51,613
I don't care if you use ours or not.

375
00:23:51,634 --> 00:23:53,156
You don't hurt my feelings.

376
00:23:53,156 --> 00:23:55,908
And you don't get to me when you insult me.

377
00:23:55,908 --> 00:23:57,560
I'm too old to give a crap.

378
00:23:57,941 --> 00:24:01,184
So, you know, it doesn't matter to me.

379
00:24:01,184 --> 00:24:06,570
I want you to go discover and I want you to come up with some kind of disclosure.

380
00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:07,652
Is that fair?

381
00:24:07,652 --> 00:24:08,598
I don't know.

382
00:24:09,095 --> 00:24:10,398
that makes sense.

383
00:24:10,398 --> 00:24:12,342
I get where you're coming from.

384
00:24:12,342 --> 00:24:23,876
it makes sense, but I just, you know, the one thing that I, I mean, look, I'm not saying
that your findings and your opinions are not based in facts or at least, you know, things

385
00:24:23,876 --> 00:24:25,166
that you have read.

386
00:24:25,206 --> 00:24:35,309
But I mean, I don't, I would have to do my own research before I considered any type of
disclaimer because I don't want to be a fear monger.

387
00:24:35,309 --> 00:24:38,471
And I really think that like, you know, I

388
00:24:38,471 --> 00:24:47,025
You know, there are an awful lot of people buying houses with pecs and there are an awful
lot of houses being repiped with pecs.

389
00:24:47,025 --> 00:24:56,068
And if we throw some type of strong disclaimer out there, mean, look, it's not, I put in a
disclaimer about federal Pacific electric.

390
00:24:56,148 --> 00:24:59,399
I don't think we're in the same category personally.

391
00:24:59,498 --> 00:25:01,965
think it's worse because there's more.

392
00:25:02,631 --> 00:25:03,558
There's more of it.

393
00:25:03,558 --> 00:25:09,190
don't I don't have any I don't think I can back that up.

394
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:12,342
I don't feel like I could back that up as being worse.

395
00:25:12,342 --> 00:25:14,951
of where's the line at what point we call it out, right?

396
00:25:14,951 --> 00:25:16,114
That's our thing as inspectors.

397
00:25:16,114 --> 00:25:17,725
It's like, when do you call it out?

398
00:25:17,725 --> 00:25:19,506
Where do you call it out?

399
00:25:19,506 --> 00:25:24,769
We call out polybutylene because it was banned, right, as a material.

400
00:25:24,769 --> 00:25:31,043
So do you call it out in advance of that or do you call it out after it's no longer an
approved material?

401
00:25:31,043 --> 00:25:41,329
Listen, we have gone through this with so many other things and everybody made the same
exact arguments with FPE, with polybutylene, with Bulldog, with Zinsko, with whatever.

402
00:25:41,329 --> 00:25:42,030
Okay.

403
00:25:42,030 --> 00:25:45,982
They make the same exact arguments and then time will tell.

404
00:25:45,982 --> 00:25:47,232
And then all of a you prove it.

405
00:25:47,232 --> 00:25:49,514
I've lived through the whole polybutylene thing.

406
00:25:49,514 --> 00:25:51,403
I've been doing inspections since 98.

407
00:25:51,403 --> 00:25:51,856
All right.

408
00:25:51,856 --> 00:25:56,040
I've lived through that whole thing where we're going, we're starting to learn about poly.

409
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,679
You're going, holy cow, are you kidding?

410
00:25:57,679 --> 00:25:59,581
But it's so everybody's using it.

411
00:25:59,581 --> 00:26:00,762
We all use the same argument.

412
00:26:00,762 --> 00:26:02,653
Everybody's using it and it's so awesome.

413
00:26:02,653 --> 00:26:05,205
And it does all these things and saves so much time and et cetera.

414
00:26:05,205 --> 00:26:09,388
And it did nothing but get worse and worse and worse, right?

415
00:26:09,529 --> 00:26:10,929
Answer me this.

416
00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:15,533
In Florida specifically, insurance is a huge deal.

417
00:26:15,694 --> 00:26:23,741
it's uh recently citizens has added PECS specifically to their form.

418
00:26:23,741 --> 00:26:27,117
If there were no issues with PECS, we would not be seeing this.

419
00:26:27,117 --> 00:26:28,607
on the insurance forms.

420
00:26:28,607 --> 00:26:34,769
And I have had for years and years ago, people still calling the office going, hey, I'm
getting canceled.

421
00:26:34,769 --> 00:26:39,570
My insurance is getting canceled because I have PECs or they're giving me so much time
before I have to replumb.

422
00:26:39,570 --> 00:26:40,771
Why didn't you tell me this?

423
00:26:40,771 --> 00:26:43,491
We have had disclosures for a long time.

424
00:26:43,551 --> 00:26:45,892
Now, again, come up with your own disclosure.

425
00:26:45,892 --> 00:26:47,453
Hold on, Matt, come up with your own disclosure.

426
00:26:47,453 --> 00:26:54,154
Even if it's something as simple as some systems have had issues, I recommend you look
into this yourself.

427
00:26:54,154 --> 00:26:57,065
Something simple that Matt feels comfortable with.

428
00:26:57,532 --> 00:26:58,083
Yeah.

429
00:26:58,083 --> 00:27:02,306
But I mean, like determining insurability, at least in Texas, isn't our job.

430
00:27:02,306 --> 00:27:06,892
So, I mean, like, I don't really see that.

431
00:27:06,892 --> 00:27:07,953
Florida.

432
00:27:08,074 --> 00:27:08,735
Okay?

433
00:27:08,735 --> 00:27:11,477
But again, I'm not here to argue that point.

434
00:27:11,858 --> 00:27:14,341
Yes, but I'm not here to argue the point.

435
00:27:14,341 --> 00:27:16,343
It's instruments.

436
00:27:16,343 --> 00:27:19,989
Dude, you can get denied for debris in your gutter.

437
00:27:19,989 --> 00:27:20,519
huge.

438
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:21,490
Yeah, no, I get that.

439
00:27:21,490 --> 00:27:23,060
Like insurance is huge.

440
00:27:23,060 --> 00:27:30,003
That's a big deal to a homeowner, but determining insurability, at least by Texas
standards, that isn't what we do.

441
00:27:30,003 --> 00:27:39,467
uh And so and so, you know, it wouldn't that wouldn't be I mean, I know that you guys do
have some different inspections that are related specifically to insurance that we don't

442
00:27:39,467 --> 00:27:40,428
do here.

443
00:27:40,688 --> 00:27:42,248
You know, when Mets and whatnot.

444
00:27:42,248 --> 00:27:43,483
ah

445
00:27:43,483 --> 00:27:49,643
that you have a major insurer that has recognized there's issues with it and they don't
want to pay the claims.

446
00:27:49,643 --> 00:27:51,223
That's what it boils down to is the money.

447
00:27:51,223 --> 00:27:52,663
They don't want to pay the claims.

448
00:27:52,663 --> 00:27:57,403
Okay, so I'm telling you it is PEX is an issue and there's a lot of them.

449
00:27:57,403 --> 00:28:03,743
You have the chemical permeation, you have the oxidation, the chlorination degradation,
the fungal growth.

450
00:28:03,743 --> 00:28:11,603
There's so many things and speaking of chlorination degradation, 98 % of the United States

451
00:28:11,995 --> 00:28:16,215
treats their water, sanitizes their water with some form of chlorine.

452
00:28:16,495 --> 00:28:17,075
Okay?

453
00:28:17,075 --> 00:28:21,135
If you're lucky enough to be in that 2%, God bless you, that's fantastic.

454
00:28:21,135 --> 00:28:33,215
But 98 % of municipalities sanitize their water with some type of chlorine, chloramines,
chlorine dioxide, and the chlorine dioxide has now, PECS has come out and says, oh, if you

455
00:28:33,215 --> 00:28:36,375
are using chlorine dioxide to sanitize your water, don't use our product.

456
00:28:36,575 --> 00:28:41,195
It's in their, it's in, they typed it, not me, okay?

457
00:28:41,195 --> 00:28:50,943
And the number of facilities that are changing from other chlorine type of sanitization
stuff to this chlorine dioxide is growing.

458
00:28:50,944 --> 00:28:53,646
Huge, very, very large numbers.

459
00:28:53,646 --> 00:29:03,054
So even if today you're not in that category where they're using the chlorine dioxide, you
might be tomorrow, next week, next year.

460
00:29:03,054 --> 00:29:04,135
uh

461
00:29:04,135 --> 00:29:07,730
a comp here, would be almost like that.

462
00:29:07,730 --> 00:29:09,482
Matt, I don't know if they have this in Texas.

463
00:29:09,482 --> 00:29:12,496
I encountered it plenty up in Virginia and DC.

464
00:29:12,496 --> 00:29:21,186
But like Atlas Chalet shingle, where it was made to look like architectural shingle, but
it fell apart in no time.

465
00:29:21,267 --> 00:29:22,608
And now I don't.

466
00:29:23,797 --> 00:29:26,859
I can't speak to a ban being in place on it.

467
00:29:26,859 --> 00:29:37,186
Maybe after a while there was, but ah it was something that I called out anytime that I
found it just because it was known to have issues, even though I found instances of its

468
00:29:37,186 --> 00:29:37,887
use.

469
00:29:37,887 --> 00:29:41,689
So maybe this is something that we're looking at where it's kind of going the route.

470
00:29:41,689 --> 00:29:51,596
We haven't quite reached a polybutylene ban on PEX, but it might be something where it's
like there's known defects just as there were with that with Shelly shingles.

471
00:29:51,596 --> 00:29:52,689
Is that something?

472
00:29:52,689 --> 00:29:54,819
can the product get better over time?

473
00:29:54,819 --> 00:29:57,369
I guess it would depend on the chemical makeup, wouldn't it?

474
00:29:57,369 --> 00:30:02,989
mean, well, I mean, mean, it can be manufactured to do.

475
00:30:03,139 --> 00:30:04,327
I'm sorry, you meant what?

476
00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:11,285
I think he's saying like, we learn things about the pipe and we correct things about the
pipe.

477
00:30:11,285 --> 00:30:18,112
And then I think it can be manufactured better over time, possibly, or installed better
over time.

478
00:30:18,112 --> 00:30:21,334
mean, if leaching is a problem, you can sleeve it.

479
00:30:22,896 --> 00:30:27,581
There are practices that could help reduce things that are happening.

480
00:30:27,581 --> 00:30:30,152
called for back in the original EIR.

481
00:30:30,152 --> 00:30:34,653
They said, uh okay, if you're going to use it, then you have to sleeve it.

482
00:30:34,653 --> 00:30:37,114
And it was codified for a while.

483
00:30:37,114 --> 00:30:42,135
And then the plastic industry, whatever fought back in California, ran out of money.

484
00:30:42,135 --> 00:30:43,676
Go figure, right?

485
00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:45,276
And so that kind of died out.

486
00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:54,987
But okay, if you can solve a problem or maybe the fungal growth problem, maybe you can
solve some of those issues with that.

487
00:30:54,987 --> 00:30:56,689
You still have others.

488
00:30:56,711 --> 00:31:05,137
So again, my point is, guys, there's a long list of issues here and you need to look into
them and come up with your disclosure.

489
00:31:05,255 --> 00:31:07,156
yeah, I, yeah, I don't know.

490
00:31:07,156 --> 00:31:14,058
I mean, that would be like me disclosing builders that have known issues with their
builds.

491
00:31:15,179 --> 00:31:16,439
I don't, I don't.

492
00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:20,901
Yeah, I don't actually, but I mean like, but no, I mean like some people do, right?

493
00:31:20,901 --> 00:31:25,643
But I mean like, I, I, I feel like that's what it's like, you know?

494
00:31:25,643 --> 00:31:30,585
And I think, I think it's so, a lot of the things are region specific.

495
00:31:31,737 --> 00:31:34,817
fitting specific, installation specific.

496
00:31:34,817 --> 00:31:44,717
And so I just wonder as inspectors, mean, look, I want to provide my clients with the best
possible inspection money can buy.

497
00:31:44,757 --> 00:31:49,697
But I also, I mean, I could freak them out literally about almost everything about their
home.

498
00:31:49,697 --> 00:31:58,189
And I mean, you know, a lot of this, a lot of things, I think come down to what someone
can afford.

499
00:31:58,189 --> 00:32:00,720
There's a lot of things to factor in.

500
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:13,635
mean, if someone's buying a house from the 70s and it's got galvanized pipe in it, they
are bound to have, I mean, it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when they are going

501
00:32:13,635 --> 00:32:16,696
to have catastrophic problems of some sort.

502
00:32:16,696 --> 00:32:19,357
And so they need to consider repiping.

503
00:32:19,737 --> 00:32:25,257
They, you know, a standard 2,500 square foot house, you're looking at six to $12,000 to
put pecs in.

504
00:32:25,257 --> 00:32:28,177
You're looking at 15 to $30,000 to put copper in.

505
00:32:28,177 --> 00:32:29,477
Like, I don't know.

506
00:32:29,477 --> 00:32:36,116
And then, and then there's a factor of at least here, like in 2021, we never, we're kind
of like Florida.

507
00:32:36,116 --> 00:32:40,377
We don't freeze, but in 2021, we, we froze, right?

508
00:32:40,377 --> 00:32:42,757
A lot of people want to act like that's a really big deal.

509
00:32:42,757 --> 00:32:47,417
And it was for us at the time, but it was like a 500 year situation.

510
00:32:47,715 --> 00:32:51,827
we're not gonna change our entire building practices based on this one event.

511
00:32:51,827 --> 00:32:54,569
But what pipe held up during that time?

512
00:32:54,569 --> 00:32:55,569
PECs.

513
00:32:55,710 --> 00:32:59,211
Everything else, especially copper, busted.

514
00:32:59,211 --> 00:33:04,424
A lot of catastrophic flooding situations happened in homes that had metal pipes.

515
00:33:04,424 --> 00:33:08,697
I mean, some PVC too, but know, galvanized obviously, which is a problem.

516
00:33:08,697 --> 00:33:13,800
I don't even wanna include that in there because it's such a anyway, but copper had a lot
of problems.

517
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,831
And PECs had a few, but...

518
00:33:17,194 --> 00:33:18,455
Not really.

519
00:33:18,533 --> 00:33:21,451
And so I just think there's so many things to factor in.

520
00:33:21,731 --> 00:33:25,731
But listen, and a lot of this degradation is from the inside out.

521
00:33:25,731 --> 00:33:28,171
Okay, so you're looking at it and it looks fine.

522
00:33:28,171 --> 00:33:36,091
The exact same defense that somebody with a Zinsko panel goes, well look, it's been there
for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, John, we've never had an issue with it.

523
00:33:36,091 --> 00:33:38,851
You might and you might not know it, you can't see it.

524
00:33:38,851 --> 00:33:45,151
So when you look at these things under a microscope, some of them you don't even need in
the microscope, you can see radial cracks.

525
00:33:45,151 --> 00:33:51,627
I can show you numerous images of the cracks and maybe you can't see it from the surface.

526
00:33:51,627 --> 00:33:54,858
And when is it going to reach that crack going to reach from the center to the surface?

527
00:33:54,858 --> 00:33:58,710
When's it going to reach that tomorrow, next week, next month, next year?

528
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:59,529
Who knows?

529
00:33:59,529 --> 00:34:03,071
The point is you said you want to provide the best possible product.

530
00:34:03,332 --> 00:34:12,876
Then you are you, it's your responsibility to look into this and read about it, get
educated on it and come up with some type of disclosure because I don't want to see Matt

531
00:34:12,876 --> 00:34:21,519
get sued over something that only took you a sentence to say, Hey, listen, I've done some
research and there are some issues associated with this.

532
00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:30,849
Here's some websites or here's additional things for you to look into because it's not our
job to tell people to buy, not buy, anything else like that.

533
00:34:32,011 --> 00:34:32,665
Educate.

534
00:34:32,665 --> 00:34:33,715
I I get that.

535
00:34:33,715 --> 00:34:44,108
I mean, like, I think that, like, as inspectors, like, I don't think, I don't know, it's
hard for me to say that this this disclaimer is protecting us from any type of lawsuit.

536
00:34:44,148 --> 00:34:56,888
I mean, it is, we're responsible for telling what kind of pipe the house has, but I don't,
I mean, I don't see how it's, I mean, it's, it's covering us for sure to have some type

537
00:34:56,888 --> 00:34:58,592
of, I could see that.

538
00:34:59,212 --> 00:35:00,823
But I mean, I don't know at what cost.

539
00:35:00,823 --> 00:35:01,987
I mean, there's like a

540
00:35:01,987 --> 00:35:06,126
There's like a 90 % chance no matter what house somebody buys out here, they're buying it
with pecs.

541
00:35:06,126 --> 00:35:11,627
um And so I don't, but I don't see where we're liable.

542
00:35:11,933 --> 00:35:20,567
It's almost, mean, Matt, almost sounds like you're kind of, again, this is not to
discredit, ah you know, what John has been saying and the evidence that he's been

543
00:35:20,567 --> 00:35:24,579
presenting, but it's almost like, where do you make the line on disclaimers?

544
00:35:24,579 --> 00:35:30,182
Because I could in Florida go look at a 20 to 25 year shingle.

545
00:35:30,182 --> 00:35:35,670
And we know in Florida, John, that that thing is going to last maybe 15 tops because we

546
00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:36,055
here.

547
00:35:36,055 --> 00:35:37,185
cook through shingles.

548
00:35:37,185 --> 00:35:39,287
Yeah, we cook through shingles, right?

549
00:35:39,387 --> 00:35:46,491
So if you don't, if somebody assumes because the homeowner told them when they bought it,
yeah, that's a 30 year shingle.

550
00:35:46,491 --> 00:35:52,774
And then they find out five years in, wait, it was 10 years old and now I have to replace
it.

551
00:35:52,774 --> 00:35:56,006
Well, my home inspector should have told me, I mean, do you make a note?

552
00:35:56,006 --> 00:36:05,614
Hey, we live in Florida, maybe consider getting metal or concrete tile or anything that's
not asphalt shingle or

553
00:36:05,614 --> 00:36:07,183
you know, what do you, what do you say?

554
00:36:07,183 --> 00:36:08,899
mean, where do you draw a line on that?

555
00:36:08,899 --> 00:36:10,159
You know what's interesting?

556
00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:15,879
As I've researched some of this stuff, I've gone into plumber forums to see what they have
to say about it.

557
00:36:15,879 --> 00:36:18,499
And I will tell you what plumbers have to say about it.

558
00:36:18,499 --> 00:36:20,919
50 % of them love it, 50 % of them hate it.

559
00:36:20,919 --> 00:36:21,539
OK?

560
00:36:21,539 --> 00:36:24,039
So ask your plumber and you're going to whatever.

561
00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:26,339
You're going to get an opinion.

562
00:36:26,339 --> 00:36:27,639
But look at the evidence.

563
00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:29,019
Look at all these settled cases.

564
00:36:29,019 --> 00:36:29,499
Look at all this stuff.

565
00:36:29,499 --> 00:36:31,199
You cannot ignore it.

566
00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:32,019
OK?

567
00:36:32,139 --> 00:36:34,199
Do you know when chlorine degradation starts?

568
00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:36,759
This is a thought I've meant to finish before.

569
00:36:37,399 --> 00:36:38,299
Immediately.

570
00:36:39,209 --> 00:36:47,230
After I did this presentation at our state association one time, and I had all kinds of
people upset, go figure, right?

571
00:36:47,230 --> 00:36:51,812
But this one young lady, Megan Keith, her niche is 11 month.

572
00:36:51,812 --> 00:36:54,003
She lives in an area where everything's new.

573
00:36:54,003 --> 00:36:56,104
And that's her niche, 11 month inspections.

574
00:36:56,104 --> 00:36:58,604
And she's like, my God, this is what I'm seeing.

575
00:36:58,604 --> 00:37:00,605
Now she understands it.

576
00:37:00,605 --> 00:37:05,686
again, I can show you numerous images of chlorine degradation, what it looks like.

577
00:37:05,686 --> 00:37:09,099
And you need to know what to look for, that popcorning and that yellowing.

578
00:37:09,099 --> 00:37:14,065
of the pipe, that's chlorine degradation or chlorination degradation, whatever you want to
call that.

579
00:37:14,987 --> 00:37:15,434
Yeah.

580
00:37:15,434 --> 00:37:16,672
Where are you seeing the pipe?

581
00:37:16,672 --> 00:37:22,380
We see the pipe all over the place in the garage, the attic, because it's all exposed.

582
00:37:22,380 --> 00:37:31,116
there's very little pipe exposed and usually almost none unless it's always covered with
insulation or pipe insulation.

583
00:37:31,116 --> 00:37:35,376
So if you can't see it, does it make it untrue?

584
00:37:35,376 --> 00:37:36,736
Of course not.

585
00:37:37,016 --> 00:37:37,916
Okay.

586
00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:40,976
The good thing is I can see it and I can show you the pictures.

587
00:37:40,976 --> 00:37:42,956
The pipes eventually turn yellow.

588
00:37:42,956 --> 00:37:45,856
They start what they call popcorning and you get in yellow spots.

589
00:37:45,856 --> 00:37:49,136
That is chlorination degradation, which occurs on the interior.

590
00:37:49,496 --> 00:38:00,690
you see, first of all, PEX is inherently incompatible with chlorine treated water, which
is where I was going with the 98 % of the country.

591
00:38:00,690 --> 00:38:01,721
is using that.

592
00:38:01,721 --> 00:38:06,963
So they have to add antioxidants to it so it doesn't break down as fast.

593
00:38:06,963 --> 00:38:11,245
Well, all of these things uh accelerate that process.

594
00:38:11,245 --> 00:38:12,705
Heat, you know, you, Mr.

595
00:38:12,705 --> 00:38:19,268
Plummer, mentioned heat, uh the exposure, obviously, the chlorine, those kinds of things,
just to accelerate it.

596
00:38:19,268 --> 00:38:24,770
uh So if you had it, if you kept it away from heat, would that prolong it?

597
00:38:24,770 --> 00:38:25,840
Yeah, maybe.

598
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,024
OK, but again, it does not make any difference.

599
00:38:29,024 --> 00:38:32,435
There are these issues exist and I don't make them up.

600
00:38:32,435 --> 00:38:33,656
You can read them for yourself.

601
00:38:33,656 --> 00:38:37,646
I'll be happy to provide resources for you to read yourself.

602
00:38:37,727 --> 00:38:48,011
it's everybody's obligation as a home inspector if our job is to provide some
clarification of something so somebody can make an informed decision.

603
00:38:48,592 --> 00:38:49,848
That's all I'm asking.

604
00:38:49,848 --> 00:38:51,650
that seems to be what you're getting at right there.

605
00:38:51,650 --> 00:38:55,073
It's educating about what information is available.

606
00:38:55,220 --> 00:38:55,850
Right, right.

607
00:38:55,850 --> 00:38:56,681
You know what?

608
00:38:56,681 --> 00:39:08,185
I was mentioning a year earlier this everybody is aware that the old 410A refrigerant is
going out and the what was it 454B or and some 32 and something.

609
00:39:08,185 --> 00:39:11,787
OK, so there's whatever this new refrigerant is coming out.

610
00:39:11,907 --> 00:39:12,857
It's codified.

611
00:39:12,857 --> 00:39:13,998
It's all over the country.

612
00:39:13,998 --> 00:39:20,291
And what if I sat here and told you, holy cow, did you see all the fires that are
happening because of this refrigerant?

613
00:39:20,291 --> 00:39:22,641
And all of a sudden they're they're combusting.

614
00:39:22,641 --> 00:39:24,224
Systems are combusting.

615
00:39:24,224 --> 00:39:30,370
Would you sit there and say, yeah, but wait a minute, they're installing all over the
United States, so I'm going to ignore everything you're telling me.

616
00:39:30,370 --> 00:39:31,862
Well, that would be ignorant, right?

617
00:39:31,862 --> 00:39:33,813
Now, hold on, right?

618
00:39:34,014 --> 00:39:35,075
I'm right.

619
00:39:35,075 --> 00:39:37,848
You would have to go, wow, well, let me look into this.

620
00:39:37,848 --> 00:39:39,259
Let me read these news stories.

621
00:39:39,259 --> 00:39:42,922
Let me read this and find out, is this a regional thing?

622
00:39:43,523 --> 00:39:48,339
Your obligation would be to educate yourself and find out about it, is my point.

623
00:39:48,339 --> 00:39:49,102
Yeah, I see what you're saying.

624
00:39:49,102 --> 00:39:50,953
what I'm saying.

625
00:39:50,953 --> 00:39:53,693
I don't think that's the point I'm trying to make.

626
00:39:53,693 --> 00:39:56,254
I'm trying to figure out how to articulate it.

627
00:39:56,254 --> 00:40:03,606
But if someone is going to buy a house, OK, all right.

628
00:40:03,986 --> 00:40:12,288
If you want to talk about the refrigerant, if someone's going to buy a house within a
certain time frame, it's going to have that.

629
00:40:13,489 --> 00:40:18,610
If someone's going to buy a house right now, whether it's new or in the last five or six
years, it's

630
00:40:18,664 --> 00:40:21,696
almost 100 % going to have pecs in it.

631
00:40:22,157 --> 00:40:27,962
And so, I I could, I could, I could, I'm not saying it does.

632
00:40:28,323 --> 00:40:34,808
I'm not saying it does, but does it make me a better inspector to tell them, hey, this,
this product is probably going to fail on you at some point.

633
00:40:34,808 --> 00:40:41,034
Um, and to tell them that, I mean, is it, I mean, I don't know.

634
00:40:41,034 --> 00:40:45,498
We're, we're, that's speculation, but that's

635
00:40:46,144 --> 00:40:47,186
But that's speculation.

636
00:40:47,186 --> 00:40:49,560
We don't know if any of that's going to happen.

637
00:40:50,723 --> 00:40:54,068
Well, it don't.

638
00:40:54,210 --> 00:40:56,524
But no, you've read about specific.

639
00:40:56,524 --> 00:40:59,577
and years and years, more than the 10 years that we're talking about.

640
00:40:59,577 --> 00:41:01,018
It's proven.

641
00:41:01,018 --> 00:41:07,802
The scientists have proven all this stuff with oh their fancy magnifying glasses and all
this stuff.

642
00:41:07,822 --> 00:41:09,063
It's all proven.

643
00:41:09,063 --> 00:41:16,347
The chemical permeation, UV degradation, uh chlorination degradation, oxidation, the
fungal growth.

644
00:41:16,368 --> 00:41:18,439
It goes on and on and on.

645
00:41:19,429 --> 00:41:19,763
I-

646
00:41:19,763 --> 00:41:20,987
know, man.

647
00:41:21,013 --> 00:41:22,055
I don't know.

648
00:41:22,735 --> 00:41:31,359
It's let's kick it to the audience here because I think this is a great place because
again, you guys have been sounding off on this for the past six months on two episodes.

649
00:41:31,359 --> 00:41:33,180
This is now the third we're doing on it.

650
00:41:33,180 --> 00:41:34,741
So we want to hear respectfully.

651
00:41:34,741 --> 00:41:37,442
We want to hear y'all's opinion as an inspector.

652
00:41:37,442 --> 00:41:38,902
Are you guys calling this out?

653
00:41:38,902 --> 00:41:40,063
Do you have a disclaimer?

654
00:41:40,063 --> 00:41:42,484
What are you saying in that disclaimer?

655
00:41:42,484 --> 00:41:45,165
And again, let's say let's open this up.

656
00:41:45,586 --> 00:41:52,669
Is this something that's specific to PECS alone or are you guys aware of any lawsuits that
have applied to CPVC?

657
00:41:52,669 --> 00:41:55,431
and PVC or any materials before that.

658
00:41:55,431 --> 00:42:06,839
Where do we draw the line as inspectors on what we call out, what we don't, what
disclaimers we use, and basically what we go through and approve of or alert buyers to?

659
00:42:06,839 --> 00:42:09,001
ah Drop it in the comments.

660
00:42:09,001 --> 00:42:16,186
Please share this with other inspectors so we can get them to buy in on this as well,
because I want this to be a community-wide discussion.

661
00:42:16,186 --> 00:42:18,569
And we welcome y'all's opinions here, for sure.

662
00:42:18,569 --> 00:42:20,669
and please make it a discussion.

663
00:42:20,669 --> 00:42:23,369
Okay, don't sit here and say, it's installed everywhere.

664
00:42:23,369 --> 00:42:25,969
Therefore, okay, that's not an argument.

665
00:42:26,629 --> 00:42:27,862
You know what saying?

666
00:42:27,862 --> 00:42:32,126
don't want it to be that's not the argument that I'm making.

667
00:42:32,407 --> 00:42:41,275
I just think that like, say this and I so I freaked them out and now what are they going
to do?

668
00:42:41,737 --> 00:42:50,305
If you put some scary disclaimer in your report about this, what are they going to do?

669
00:42:51,041 --> 00:42:52,421
Okay, well then don't.

670
00:42:52,622 --> 00:42:54,102
Then don't do that.

671
00:42:55,724 --> 00:42:59,065
I'm saying there are ramifications for ignoring it.

672
00:42:59,065 --> 00:43:06,309
When I was going through a lot of these forms and stuff reading about it, because again, I
didn't come up with this opinion.

673
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:09,671
Everybody else, the facts did, the lawsuits did.

674
00:43:09,671 --> 00:43:14,053
I'm finding all kinds of complaints from consumers.

675
00:43:14,053 --> 00:43:16,194
My inspector didn't tell me.

676
00:43:16,215 --> 00:43:18,756
And they're making social media posts.

677
00:43:18,756 --> 00:43:21,087
I can't get insurance because...

678
00:43:21,601 --> 00:43:23,061
The inspector missed it.

679
00:43:23,061 --> 00:43:24,081
You can find those too.

680
00:43:24,081 --> 00:43:25,001
I did not make this up.

681
00:43:25,001 --> 00:43:26,921
I'll let you read them.

682
00:43:27,141 --> 00:43:30,041
So, so, so, hey, it is what it is.

683
00:43:30,041 --> 00:43:32,281
There's ramifications of the morning.

684
00:43:32,558 --> 00:43:33,906
But did the inspector miss it?

685
00:43:33,906 --> 00:43:35,086
It doesn't matter.

686
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:36,311
It does.

687
00:43:36,311 --> 00:43:38,431
It matters a great deal to the inspector.

688
00:43:38,431 --> 00:43:40,805
is mad and they're making social media posts about it.

689
00:43:40,805 --> 00:43:43,068
It doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong.

690
00:43:43,229 --> 00:43:45,251
They are going to make the social media post.

691
00:43:45,671 --> 00:43:46,550
You know, it matters.

692
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:49,166
We have our job has limitations.

693
00:43:49,248 --> 00:43:50,559
It is very clear.

694
00:43:50,559 --> 00:43:51,631
middle of the road here guys.

695
00:43:51,631 --> 00:43:59,732
What if you just the same way that we have a life expectancy or at least in my reports, I
put a life expectancy on appliances and materials, right?

696
00:43:59,732 --> 00:44:00,712
Roof.

697
00:44:00,805 --> 00:44:04,567
kitchen appliances, heating and cooling, water heaters.

698
00:44:04,567 --> 00:44:06,148
I put life expectancies.

699
00:44:06,148 --> 00:44:13,733
When it comes to plumbing, can we say for a fact, hey, you might be good with this for 20
to 30 years.

700
00:44:13,733 --> 00:44:19,686
It's rated for a 50 year life expectancy, but there are known issues that could cause the
life expectancy to be shortened.

701
00:44:19,686 --> 00:44:20,947
Just you need to be aware.

702
00:44:20,947 --> 00:44:23,578
What if you said life expectancy may vary?

703
00:44:24,197 --> 00:44:25,223
That could work.

704
00:44:25,223 --> 00:44:26,351
Yeah, yeah.

705
00:44:26,351 --> 00:44:28,086
you say, I just want to protect you.

706
00:44:28,086 --> 00:44:28,513
That's all.

707
00:44:28,513 --> 00:44:29,634
we're, but that's where we're getting that.

708
00:44:29,634 --> 00:44:36,518
Like what I think Matt was driving home at is, is what, what can we do with this
information that helps the buyer?

709
00:44:36,518 --> 00:44:38,019
I think that's what he was really getting at.

710
00:44:38,019 --> 00:44:46,665
So, I mean, I feel like that's a good solution right there where you can give a life
expectancy or simply say that it varies due to known conditions.

711
00:44:46,693 --> 00:44:54,156
that may be affected by your water, have a water test done to uh clarify quality in your
area.

712
00:44:54,156 --> 00:45:01,420
mean, you could, because again, that goes beyond the scope of the inspection there, but
that's something that you could do if you really, really want to know the nuts and bolts

713
00:45:01,420 --> 00:45:06,042
of your home is what kind of effect is the water quality having on the piping in your
home?

714
00:45:06,042 --> 00:45:07,068
It could be completely different.

715
00:45:07,068 --> 00:45:16,627
mean, we're talking, John, we're talking in Florida in a place where, you know, water is
treated with chlorine, but is this going to apply on a private well system?

716
00:45:16,627 --> 00:45:19,721
that's mineral rich and fairly clean, you know?

717
00:45:19,721 --> 00:45:22,972
You know, that's funny you mentioned that because that's a great question.

718
00:45:22,972 --> 00:45:29,015
I don't have the technical answer to it, but in one of these forums, a guy, and I use this
in my presentation.

719
00:45:29,015 --> 00:45:31,636
I've got a two hour presentation on PECS.

720
00:45:31,636 --> 00:45:35,277
All these facts, and I show you the pictures, the lawsuits, you read it for yourself.

721
00:45:35,277 --> 00:45:40,479
But one of the guys that responds, goes, I'm having all these problems, the leaks, et
cetera, et cetera.

722
00:45:40,479 --> 00:45:41,860
I'm on a well.

723
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,482
Some of these leaks are coming from mechanical stresses.

724
00:45:46,482 --> 00:45:48,062
That's another one of the weak points.

725
00:45:48,062 --> 00:45:49,703
When you start, you know,

726
00:45:49,703 --> 00:45:56,844
bragging and show how you can bend this stuff you're causing That's the impetus of the
crack development

727
00:45:56,844 --> 00:46:04,353
to, or it can even go back to a pressure reducing valve that's oversized for the capacity
of the home or for the pipe.

728
00:46:04,654 --> 00:46:10,542
that, again, if it's over pressurizing the pipe, that's going to cause failures no matter
what material you're using.

729
00:46:10,542 --> 00:46:15,443
Yeah, I don't recall any pressure issues with pecs, that being part of the defect.

730
00:46:15,443 --> 00:46:22,166
It's all been the, and we've talked a lot about the pipe because that's where people are
saying, well, it's only the fittings.

731
00:46:22,166 --> 00:46:27,207
It's only de-zincification in the brass fittings causing occlusion and et cetera, et
cetera.

732
00:46:27,207 --> 00:46:29,158
It's not just the fittings.

733
00:46:29,158 --> 00:46:37,316
And you know, back in God, 10, 15 years ago, whatever it was, when everybody was learning
about de-zincification, what is that?

734
00:46:37,316 --> 00:46:42,120
Well, that was something we learned and it was the F-1807 Cupex issues.

735
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:46,964
Then there was a lawsuit after that that said for all the other bright brass fittings.

736
00:46:46,964 --> 00:46:50,366
So it's not just the F-1807s, it's all the other ones.

737
00:46:50,586 --> 00:46:52,508
A of lawsuits, done.

738
00:46:52,508 --> 00:46:57,051
So again, it's not fittings, it's fittings and pipes.

739
00:46:57,051 --> 00:47:00,634
some of these lawsuits even include the stainless steel ones.

740
00:47:00,634 --> 00:47:03,600
One of the manufacturers I forget right now, tuck my head.

741
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:08,945
uh stopped manufacturing those stainless steel fittings because of failures.

742
00:47:09,266 --> 00:47:11,284
I can't go on and on and on.

743
00:47:11,284 --> 00:47:18,075
My point is guys and gals, read for yourself, come up with a disclosure that you are
comfortable with because I don't want to get you sued.

744
00:47:18,075 --> 00:47:19,937
If you do, well, that's your own.

745
00:47:19,937 --> 00:47:26,445
If you choose to ignore, if you choose to not say anything, you might get away with it,
but you might not.

746
00:47:26,445 --> 00:47:28,026
Now, John, we appreciate it.

747
00:47:28,026 --> 00:47:28,686
Seriously, man.

748
00:47:28,686 --> 00:47:30,557
This has been a ton of information.

749
00:47:30,557 --> 00:47:34,910
And again, you know, it's yeah, very helpful, very educational.

750
00:47:34,910 --> 00:47:43,585
And we want to kick it back to the comments, you know, guys, sound sign, which I was
against sound off in the comments on your take on this, what you've read and researched

751
00:47:43,585 --> 00:47:44,196
yourself.

752
00:47:44,196 --> 00:47:45,946
it verify everything that John's saying?

753
00:47:45,946 --> 00:47:47,457
Have you seen what he's seeing?

754
00:47:47,457 --> 00:47:49,939
And if you're using disclaimers, what are you saying?

755
00:47:49,939 --> 00:47:50,799
How are you warning it?

756
00:47:50,799 --> 00:47:53,437
Um, and if, I was, yeah, go ahead.

757
00:47:53,437 --> 00:48:05,388
to say something, I mean, like, regardless of the fact that we may have some difference of
opinions or, or, whether or not I choose to disclose this or how I choose to disclose this

758
00:48:05,388 --> 00:48:11,191
or how you choose to disclose this, I have learned some things for you today and I
appreciate your commentary.

759
00:48:11,191 --> 00:48:13,006
I appreciate your take on everything.

760
00:48:13,006 --> 00:48:16,893
I appreciate you being on here and I like that we can have these types of discussions.

761
00:48:16,893 --> 00:48:20,836
Even if friction occurs, we learn something from that friction and I

762
00:48:20,836 --> 00:48:24,448
do intend to be the very best inspector I can be.

763
00:48:24,448 --> 00:48:34,765
And whether or not it's a consideration of something like a disclosure like this and
everyone else out there, whether you choose to do this or like Brad was saying earlier,

764
00:48:34,765 --> 00:48:41,419
some type of life expectancy, these types of conversations, we have to have these so that
we can be the best we can be.

765
00:48:41,419 --> 00:48:44,802
I'm fortunate to be a part of this conversation.

766
00:48:44,802 --> 00:48:46,102
I thank both of you.

767
00:48:46,615 --> 00:48:47,026
Thank you.

768
00:48:47,026 --> 00:48:49,156
I appreciate that and I got an idea.

769
00:48:49,435 --> 00:48:50,339
I got a great idea.

770
00:48:50,339 --> 00:48:55,025
What if you had some kind of contest and use chat GPT if you want.

771
00:48:55,025 --> 00:48:57,028
See who can come up with the best disclosure.

772
00:48:57,028 --> 00:48:58,460
best disclosure.

773
00:48:58,460 --> 00:48:59,841
Come up with the best disclosure.

774
00:48:59,841 --> 00:49:00,121
Yeah.

775
00:49:00,121 --> 00:49:01,552
Hey, post them in the comments.

776
00:49:01,552 --> 00:49:02,103
Seriously.

777
00:49:02,103 --> 00:49:04,445
And look, you guys can go in and like it.

778
00:49:04,445 --> 00:49:05,226
Right?

779
00:49:05,226 --> 00:49:07,558
One with the most likes, dude, we'll send a gift card.

780
00:49:07,558 --> 00:49:10,231
We'll send some t ra swag, something bad.

781
00:49:10,231 --> 00:49:10,811
That'd be pretty cool.

782
00:49:10,811 --> 00:49:13,500
Because we're gonna we got some t ra swag that we're rolling out here at some point soon.

783
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:17,127
Everybody wants a t-shirt, right?

784
00:49:17,229 --> 00:49:18,695
A ride along t-shirt.

785
00:49:18,695 --> 00:49:20,135
Well, the funny here's what's funny guys.

786
00:49:20,135 --> 00:49:24,136
Like when we jumped on we were like, hey, let's let's just make this it's a Sunday we're
recording.

787
00:49:24,136 --> 00:49:26,237
We all want to get in or enjoy the rest of our weekends.

788
00:49:26,237 --> 00:49:28,477
We're like, this is just going to be a short one.

789
00:49:28,537 --> 00:49:30,188
No, we're at 50 minutes now.

790
00:49:30,188 --> 00:49:33,819
Like, yeah, it's been good.

791
00:49:33,939 --> 00:49:34,709
That's it, man.

792
00:49:34,709 --> 00:49:35,379
That's it.

793
00:49:35,379 --> 00:49:36,590
Get a little drink involved.

794
00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:39,400
We get talking shop and here we are in almost an hour.

795
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,401
So, john, thank you for being here, man.

796
00:49:41,401 --> 00:49:42,541
We really appreciate it.

797
00:49:42,541 --> 00:49:45,102
Thank you everybody so much for watching.

798
00:49:45,102 --> 00:49:46,824
Enjoy your Monday.

799
00:49:46,824 --> 00:49:49,959
uh If you're listening to this, go check out Matt's presentation.

800
00:49:49,959 --> 00:49:52,552
It's Dallas, right, Matt?

801
00:49:52,874 --> 00:49:53,311
Yep.

802
00:49:53,311 --> 00:49:57,313
DFW, actually, Richardson is the specific location.

803
00:49:57,434 --> 00:49:59,672
Go check that out, four to six.

804
00:49:59,672 --> 00:50:03,193
otherwise, we'll see you right here next time on.

805
00:50:03,439 --> 00:50:04,607
The Ride Along.